On The Legacy of “Dead to Me” - Good Moms, Bad Moms, Great Quotes and What's Next
I just finished reading our last exchange here:
Links will be added as letters get published: Letter 1, Letter 2, Letter 3, Letter 4
Beth: We need to back up and discuss Ben and Steve being twin brothers and total opposites. Ok, the total opposites part is not so surprising but Jen’s face when Steve shows up at her front door after Steve’s “disappearance” is incredible. It’s like, “Wait, is this mofo back from the dead? I thought I squashed him with Judy’s wooden bird!” Yet, another thing you’d think Judy may have mentioned to Jen in between late night Rosé consumption by the pool. This is what I find so perplexing about Judy. How she withholds pretty significant details throughout the series. The fact that the guy her best friend murdered, her ex fiancé, also has a twin brother, seems one of those. Then there’s the, “Oh yeah, my current girlfriend’s roommate is Detective Perez.” Though in her defense, she spilled the tea on that pretty soon after to Jen.
JenMac - What about the big reveal in season 3 related to Ben? Was this a surprise to you too?
JenMac: Beth, yes!! Total shocker and you’re so right - that’s not a minor detail and left me shaking my head but that’s our Judy, ever so slightly (maybe not so slightly) aloof. Siblings aren’t carbon copies of one another but the difference in Ben’s and Steve’s personalities is extreme. I mean, Steve straight up sucked and Ben was just as delightful as he could be. We only had a glimpse into what their upbringing was like when we met their mom, Eileen (Frances Conroy) inside the rambling family mansion. It seemed odd to me that Ben was so unaffected by such extreme wealth while Steve clearly had a holier than thou, condescending, arrogant, misogynistic - okay that’s enough - attitude. Interestingly, Steve almost had the capacity to love deeply, thanks to Judy and her optimistic almost bullish attitude around love and happiness. If anyone can soften a person, it’s Judy. And it’s not just Steve, it’s Jen, Charlie and maybe even Perez that Judy was able to bring a new level of joy and love to, not an easy task as these folks had some prickly, tough exteriors.
Patience and love, kindness and compassion, you’d think Judy had some amazing role models in her life but when we meet her mom, Eleanor (Katey Sagal) we know it wasn’t her showing Judy the ropes. As a mom myself, I found their jailhouse exchanges particularly painful knowing how much Judy longed for love and acceptance from her grifter mom, but Eleanor, always the hustler, was only able to provide conditional love and just wanted money from Judy to pay for a better lawyer. Seeing Katey and Christina on screen together again was thrilling for me and in that scene, in Jen’s kitchen, we start to see Eleanor’s hard exterior crack when it’s revealed that her daughter has cancer. Beth, how did the relationship between Judy and her mom affect you and what did you think of Eleanor’s “gift” to Judy?
Beth: The Katey-Christina reunion for me was a dream come true having seen their chemistry as mother-daughter in Married with Children. But if we think about Peg Bundy (Sagal’s MWC character) she was also an against type mother - considered brazen, undomesticated, and less
Source: Get.TV/ 80s Married with Children
outwardly in tune with the needs of her charges, i.e. husband and kids. This representation was pretty bold for its time as this was Reagan era 80s - a more conservative callback to traditional roles for women as matriarchs and moms. And while we’re supposed to laugh at Peggy, we are also in on the joke at times. Contrast this with Frances Conroy (Ruth Fisher, the matriarch from Six Feet Under), who has such a kind, warm and inviting presence as Steve/Ben’s mom and the manipulative against type mom, of Katey Segal’s Eleanor’s in Dead to Me and I think we’re supposed to dislike her, viscerally. She is a grifter to your point and more to that, she had her daughter running cons and put Judy in a position where she was forced to testify against her mom and put her into jail - a brave decision for her but not without its parental attachment theory strife. When Judy initiates contact with her mom again while she’s in prison in season 3, we get that it’s an “end of the road” measure to tie up loose ends and make things right with her mom before she dies, but also ultimately a gift to her mom so she can leave things on a good note with her daughter and not have regrets.
I’m aware of Judy’s generous gift to Eleanor but foggy on the Eleanor “gift” to Judy, JenMac. Care to elaborate?
JenMac: While it may be a case of too little too late, Eleanor did take Judy’s house arrest ankle bracelet and drive to where the clinical trial was taking place so Judy and Jen could finally take their vacation. The gift of freedom is pretty significant and I love that Eleanor did that for Judy even if it’s the only selfless thing she ever did for her daughter.
That said, I take solace in the relationship Judy had with Abe (Ed Asner). He was everything Judy never had - a parent, a protector, a confidant - a non-judgmental go-to. Judy’s experiences broke my heart so many times throughout the series and the passing of Abe was no exception. Jen is a soul mate to Judy for sure but she has baggage she can’t pack away and at the time of Abe’s passing, Steve was dead and Jen wished that Judy would join him. It’s unclear how heavy a load Abe was carrying around but he didn’t need to share it with anyone, he was just solidly there for Judy. When she lost him, she lost something of a moral sounding board which could have easily sent her into (more of) a total emotional tailspin.
Source: Netflix
Beth, since we covered two of the best (IMHO) guest stars on the show, are there any other stand-outs you want to talk about? I’m not baiting you but Lorna awful, pill popping mother-in-law who was brilliantly portrayed by Valerie Mahaffey and was so deliciously easy to hate comes to mind.
Beth: Lorna. So much to say about her. And I know JenMac you have plenty to share on this front so don’t want to deny you this. IMHO, she plays to the stereotype of the nightmare mother-in-law that thankfully I never experienced. Very controlling, judgey and not to mention passive aggressive under the guise of a compliment which she wields for criticism. Somehow she also comes across as benevolent to the grandkids though they are aware of her pill popping and booze habit. I love how even after Judy’s death she can’t get her name right when she turns to Jen in the church and gives her condolences. The best portrayal of the passive aggressive mother-in-law though by far is Marie Barone from Everyone Loves Raymond played by the divine Doris Roberts, may she rest in peace. She also played the mother-in-law in National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation.
JenMac, my favorite guest stars in no particular order, (2 out of 3 we’ve covered off on):
Katey Sagal as Eleanor Hale (Judy’s mom) - Because she’s a badass in any role she does.
Source: TVLine
Ed Asner as Abe Rifkin (Judy’s friend who lived at the assisted living facility and died) - For all the reasons you mentioned. Ed Asner just slays. And Judy never had any real parents so this feels right.
Source: Netflix
Jere Burns as Howard Hastings (crooked cop) - Short stint but anytime Jere has a guest spot, this song (Dear John theme song) goes through my head. Plus, he’s just so deliciously cringey and vile here.
Source: IMDB
I’d be remiss if I didn’t say how much I valued this show from a “no longer young, but not really old” female perspective. I’m just quoting my kids here. But seriously, I appreciate that this show takes time to cover off on topics like perimenopause, aging, fertility, and challenges like coming to terms with loss of a part of your body (like your breasts) that contribute to defining womanhood. We talked about my experience briefly with mom passing away in letter one. She had breast cancer when I was very young and underwent a radical mastectomy at a time when breast cancer research advancement was not as far along as it is today. I used to often exist in this state of “what if” i.e. “What if she had received a round or 2 of radiation post surgery? Would she have survived? Would she have lived just another few years and seen me into college? In real life, Christina Applegate (Jen) shared publicly her decision when she was in her 30s to undergo a prophylactic double mastectomy after finding a tumor in one of her breasts and testing positive for the BRCA-1 breast cancer gene mutation. To me, this was Applegate’s way of eliminating that risk and doing what she could to prevent a premature death because she had this knowledge and science was much further along. In the show, Jen’s life mirrors Christina’s in that she undergoes this procedure and faces rejection from her husband, Ted, who no longer deems her desirable and to boot, cheats on her. How painful this must have been for Jen and how vulnerable for Applegate to have this art imitating life element of the procedure in common with her character. I’m stunned and wowed everytime I see how much of a brilliant actress Applegate is in these scenes and how I imagine it cuts close to home.
JenMac, were there any lived female experience themes on this show that resonate more for you than others? And switching gears…this show has some great dialogue and memorable lines. What are some of your favorites?
Below are mine:
On friendship:
“You don’t have to take pity on me. Just because I’m a 41-year-old barren woman living in an assisted living facility” - Judy
“Yes I do. Seriously come.” - Jen
On parenting:
“Enough with the “Fucks” - You are 14 years old.” Jen to her son Charlie at the dinner table, as she explains why Judy needs to live with them and he totally dismisses the fact that Judy is there.
After this scene:
Jen: “I’m sorry about Charlie. He’s been such a little dick since his dad died.”
Judy: “No, he’s great.”
On enduring hardship and being a survivor:
Jen to Ben: “Cause I think that scars show that you went through something hard and you survived. And it’s your story. Just how I look at it.”
JenMac: For me, the most relatable experience was the stress of being a mom. Granted, I have not lived through my husband being run over by my new best friend and then murdering her fiancé BUT the challenges Jen faces, especially with a very stubborn Charlie, could easily be my daily life. You know how much I love Perez. Well, her work stress, evidenced by the constant chomping of Tums is pretty much spot on to what I experience on the daily. More than specific themes, I had sort of a surreal connection to this show and its characters. I haven’t experienced that much outside of novels where I get super attached and go through a mini-grieving process when I finish a book and have to say goodbye to my new, fictitious buddies. Also, you are spot on when it comes to Marie Barone, I have relatives who are ‘Marie level’ but no matter how bad Marie was (and she was bad), she cared about her kids and her grandkids and “competed” on a much lower lever with Debra (i.e. cooking) than that despicable Lorna.
As far as favorite quotes, this is the one that’s stuck with me:
"My aunt fell down a flight of stairs and cracked her head open and bled out as her five year old son watched, and I was the one that asked her to get me a soda from the basement. So I live with that. And that's a little something about me." - Wayne
Pastor Wayne often made me laugh but I’m not sure that was the intent. He was so dry in his delivery that I’d crack up and then feel guilty about it.
Beth, you captured some great quotes from the show and they each stir up lots of feels. And speaking of feels, I have had THE BEST time discussing Dead to Me with you! Just like my attachment to novels, I’ve become spoiled by this process and will miss our writing sessions and delving into the world of Jen and Judy and seeing the parallels to our own lives. I’m already thinking about what we should discuss next: 80’s classic movies or TV shows? GalPal dramedies? What do you think?
Beth: Pastor Wayne is phenomenal. I can’t believe we almost went 4 letters without a near mention of him. And let’s be honest, James Marsden is so memorable in this. How you can really dislike him as Steve, only to completely turn that around when you see him like one episode later as Ben, the nice, flawed guy who makes you forget all about Steve. That’s pretty multi-faceted acting right there. I, too, have gr8tly enjoyed every one of these interactions we’ve had on Dead to Me. It’s because of you I subjected myself willingly to watching 300 minutes of TV in like 2 weeks. I’m going to need a beat to think about your “what’s next?” question more seriously. Right off the bat, I like the idea of mom focused dramedies to your bit about relating to that aspect of the show. I’ve heard wonderful things about the Allison Janey/ Anna Faris now canceled show, Mom on Hulu. Next though I have to write a really strong defense of another great sitcom that was just canceled on Hulu called Reboot. It’s being shopped around to other studios, but boy, did Hulu make a mistake letting this one go. It’s SO good. So maybe that’s our next collab? All the superb, quirky shows being canceled by big studios? Or better yet, the right sizing of fully completed seasons of shows like Minx that find themselves without homes. But before any of this, I really need to finish my weekly recaps of The Last of Us! Over and out JenMac, for now. Thank you for being my partner in TV-land.
We interrupt this post for something a tad more serious. As this show covers off on Cervical Cancer, it only seems fitting to share some information related to screening.
When cervical cancer is diagnosed at an early stage, the 5-year relative survival rate is 92%.
When cervical cancer is diagnosed after it has spread to nearby tissues, organs, or regional lymph nodes, the 5-year relative survival rate is 59%
The best prevention is screening.
Women: Learn about screening guidelines. Be up to date on your Pap.
Allies (Friends/Partners): Support your female friends in discussing these topics.
Learn more about the technology and tools .
Important stats that may be be useful.